Why We Can't Wait.
A letter to President Obama with an attached Legal Brief In Reply:
Reply to the President
We are all children of the same universe, and we each have a right to be here, marry who we want and to serve our nation in every capacity when needed.
Dear Mr. President,
Thank you for your response to our previous communications. I have taken into consideration the issues that you face and the momentous strategies that you are now forced to deal with. Nonetheless, your mantra of the “fierce urgency of now” rises to the forefront of this issue-- equality for all Americans in all areas, black and white, young and old and now gay and straight.
Your reply letter implicates a new strategy of gradualism which acts to maintain a wrong, rather than to cure a bigoted injustice. Gradualism has no place in the denial of civil or human rights. Gradualism is but a crumb from the table as opposed to an equal piece of the American pie of justice. I recall Dr. King’s address at Riverside Church, wherein he raised the issue of “why we can’t wait” saying:
“We tolerated hate; we tolerated the sick stimulation of violence in all walks of life; and we tolerated the differential application of law, which said that a man's life was sacred only if we agreed with his views.”
Mr. President, neither God nor Nature can wait for a scheduled gradualism in this 21st Century of Change.
I come as a redeemed sinner with a compelling purpose. A purpose to plead heaven and nature’s hidden truth: God made gay people and that heaven and nature demand justice, truth and fair play.
The LGBT community has been subjected to work and housing discrimination, bashings, lynching and murder throughout the history of this country. Let us not forget a young gay student, crucified on a fence and left to bleed to death on a cold Wyoming winter night, and many other similar situations too numerous to mention here. Nor can we ignore the latest studies showing that since 1999 there has been an increase in hate crimes, resulting in death and injury throughout America. One cannot hide the rising number of suicides by gay teenagers, or the number of teenagers who are bullied, beaten and abandoned by their families and churches, simply because God and Nature decreed their sexuality to be different from the majority.
“Freedom is never voluntarily given by the oppressor; it must be demanded by the oppressed.” - MLK
American hate derives from institutional instruction and attitudes which rise from the indifference of school officials who to turn a blind eye when they see a bully teasing a gay child. Moreover, it is reflected in the attitudes of the military, which contrary to the best interests of our country, insists upon rejecting soldiers simply because God made them gay. These actions wrongly support existing bigotry and teach our children that gays are not equal citizens among God’s children.
Mr. President, the world and Heaven is watching you. Our counsel to you is to follow the lessons of presidential history and tradition, empanel a Presidential Commission to set a date certain to remove “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell” and stay all pending DADT discharges. The nominees to head up this panel should be former President Clinton, former Vice President Dick Cheney, Senator John McCain, and last but most important, former General Colin Powell. They well understand the “urgency of now.” They will bring the prestige and experience to unite our military in line with the policies of our NATO military allies.
“Power at its best is love implementing the demands of justice. Justice at its best is love correcting everything that stands against love” - MLK
Today, we ask that you instruct our Solicitor General to speak that truth. The truth that the United States of America respects the individuality and sexuality of all Americans, that we are all are children of the same universe, and that we each have a right to be here, marry who we want and to serve our nation in every capacity when needed.
To all: attached herein is a sample brief which outlines an astonishing heritage and contribution that the LGBT community has given to society. We ask that you use what works, remembering that the power and force of heaven sides with all messengers of truth and justice.
Respectfully,
G. Martin Freeman, Presiding Chaplain
Universal Life Church Monastery
October 21, 2009
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Proposed Arguments for First Amendment Marriage Equality |
Past correspondence:
President Obama's Reply |
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Letter to Obama |
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Please share your thoughts with us.
We have opened our forum for discussion as well
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posted by Universal Life Church at
4:21 PM
115 Comments:
This is very interesting. Can't wait to see how things pan out. I'm with you guys 100%.
I linked to my blog and my Facebook. It can happen.
Know that you have my full support and I appreciate your efforts.
Rev. Michael J. Cauley
This is totally satanic. This church helps bring about one world religion, and probably hates true Christians, therefore the hate crime bill should be investigated towards this church.
I'm pleased to see the Church taking a stand on this and opening a dialog with those in power to resolve it. Discrimination against anyone for any reason cannot be condoned any longer.
Rev Jeff
Equal rights for sexual orientation and gender identity is the final frontier of the civil rights movement. Perhaps within our lifetimes we will finally reach the vision of our founding fathers: liberty and freedom for all no matter what their personal background or beliefs. Kudos to ULC for being on the forefront of this struggle.
Christianity and gays don't mix. Get real.
I'm afraid I must stand my ground on marriage being between 1 man and 1 woman.
I believe that basing special laws and tearing apart a tradition thousands of years old is deeply wrong and should not be demanded of those who hold marriage in high regard.
If the LGBT would compromise and come up with their own tradition, I would support them having the same rights as married couples. As long as the gay community wants to be singled out for their own laws, their own parades, traditions, etc, then they should do the same for marriage, start their own tradition and fight to have it recognized equally with marriage.
I am for them being protected for what they choose as a lifestyle, but just because they want to define themselves by what they like to do sexually doesn't make them and better or worse off than any other.
Their violence to get what they want is simply the wrong way to go about this, and as most Americans, I'm tired of their fight with no compromise what so ever.
Don't ask don't tell is still the best way for military duty. They know what they are up against because it is voluntary. No one has asked them to change, they just don't need to go around talking about it. Our Military is strong because of their training and bringing the units together as one. Don't ask don't tell keeps everyone just the same with not a care in the world which way they have sex.
We must not pamper any group over another. Sex needs to return to the home, not grouped as a race or religion. This does nothing but open the door for even worse sex scenarios down the road.
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At least within the context of Christianity, marriage has always been one of the tenants and sacraments of the Chruch, and as such is covered by First Amendment protection within the U.S. Imagine how utterly rediculous it would be if new parents had to apply for a state-issued Baptism License for their infant, or if a dying communicant needed a Last Rites License before the priest was allowed to officiate.
Thus, the state has no legal or compelling interest in domain reserved (by the 1st) exclusively for the Church.
That said, when did the ULC hold a Church-wide synod to debate its policy on same sex marriage ? Perhaps I missed something ?
I'v preached it before and I will preach it again, "GOD DONT' MAKE NO JUNK". All Gods children deserve equal treatment because He gives equal love.
Tell Anonymous to Cowboy up and own their opinion.
And who authorized the brief ... who wrote the brief, evidently purporting to speak on my behalf, evidently without first consulting me or any of the church's other registered ministers for opinions and input.
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I, for one, certainly wouldn't recommend Dick Cheney for dog catcher, let alone for membership on any panel dealing with ethical or moral issues.
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Love without measure.
I am pleased to see this action. I am happy to see the reminder that marriage is a religious union, not a government procedure.
Marraige is simply a public commitment of Love to another. Why mainstream society and the so called "Christians" are so dead set against a public commitment because one Loves one of likeness is beyond me. Isn't "Christianity" suppose to be a stance of Love and support, lifting up of others? I'm afraid the right wing Christian element has a lot to learn about christianity and what "Love" and "Christianity" stand for. Those who SELECTIVELY use the Bible to support their personal prejudices are anything BUT Christian.
What is the color, Creed, or sex of a soul?
"And Jesus wept" what Bible do you teach from that allows same sex marriage. God said this is a sin who are you to say different? Surely in the end days you will be one that aids the anti-christ I'm sure. All you liberal preacers need to go back to your Bible and start telling these people the truth in scripture and stop with the false doctrines.
Katrina, there is no right or left in religion there is only right or wrong. God tells whats right and everyone that knows the truth and ignores it will have to deal with that in the end. Good luck and may God have mercy on all you that believe same sex relationships are approved by God.
Gay relationships are forbidden in the Old Testament as well as the New Testament. God made man kind in his image. He did not make people gay, straight or celibate. These are actions a person decides to act upon. I feel to make it okay to break this rule that is written in the word of God. Then all the rules would be of no effect. For the same God that said this behavior is an abomination, also told us not to worship idols, etc..
Reverend Jacques Anthony Reinhard Heydrich Pluss, Ph.D., says: I am in full support of the Universal Life Church's position on the issue of gay marriage. Why? Because, simply put, it seems to me that our Church stands for UNITY WITHIN DIVERSITY!
Katrina, marraige is much more than a "public commitment of love to another." If a public commitment is all that this is about, then an ad could be taken out in the local newspaper, or by renting a bill board.
Biblically and historiclly speaking, marriage is a UNION created under the authority of the Christian Church. I don't believe that anyone is against, as you put it, .... "a public commitment because one loves one of likeness ..." Go for it.
IMHO, the issue spawned by the recent news release from the ULC, is what, if any, role government should have in setting laws that govern the sacraments of the Church.
It is my premise that the 1st Amendment only preserves the longstanding and pre-existing right of the Church (antecedent to the invention of the US government)to decide the rules of marriage. For government, it would be proper if it set rules for some other contrivance for the same sex unions, like civil unions for example.
In other words, this is a classical issue for separation of state from Church. If the clergy fail to understand this principle, how can we (as clergy) continue to maintain that ULC clergy can not be fettered by governmental restrictions on clerical rights to officiate at a marriage or Baptism ? Historically speaking, this principle has been fundamental within the history of the ULC.
As a secondary issue that I previously broached, are there any active ULC clergy out there who were consulted on this recent letter and brief writing exchange with the President ? Or stated otherwise, why is any Church (ie: ULC) negotiating with the government about any issues related to Church sacraments ?
"Gay relationships are forbidden in the Old Testament as well as the New Testament."
Can anybody quote the verse(s) from the bible that specifically say gay relationships are forbidden?
Three things for Rev. Jack: The book that you asked for a quote from is widely known and respected as being the Holy Bible (with caps).
Second, are you admitting that, as an ordained Rev., that you are unfamiliar with what the Holy Bible says about 'marriage' ?
Third, please note that this discussion has to do with the ULC taking a lobbying position with government about what laws the government will set for gay marriage, not, "gay relationships."
My apologies, I didn't mean to offend or disrespect anybody or the Holy Bible itself.
Christianity is not the only religion in practice on this earth, and in the same vein as correcting me about capitalizing the Bible, please don't assume every reverend / minister is a Christian or is studied in Christianity.
Apologies to everybody else here for dragging this off topic, but I felt some balance to the previous comment was necessary.
That being said, can anybody quote the verse(s) from the Holy Bible that specifically say gay relationships are forbidden?
Thank you.
It is great that you support equal marriage rights for homosexuals, but isn't it time for transsexual women to obtain the rights given to other women? I think we are the most discriminated group in our nation. We have to carry IDs that say we are male, which is not true. Of course, marriage rights to homosexuals will help the transsexual as well. Thank you very much.
Anonymous
Yes, Rev. Jack, although you are STILL off topic, I will be happy to point you toward the teaching that you seem to be seeking .....
Actually, the Bible spends quite a lot of time on your area of interst. In The Old Testament book of Genesis, the story of a man named Lot unfolds, beginning in Ch 13, vs. 12. The Bible tells us that Lot pitched his tent toward the city of Sodom in the plain of the River Jordan. In verse 13 we learn that "The men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly."
The particular form of sin that is referred to in vs. 13 is the gay relationship activity after which the city of Sodom is still infamous for until this very day. The story of Lot continues at great length, and by Genesis 19, the picture of the gay activity that went on in Sodom is made manifestly clear. Quoting selections from Genesis 19:
"And there came two angels to Sodom" Lot welcomed these angels and offered them to stay in his house. During the night, the men of Sodom "compassed the house round", and "called unto Lot" asking, "where are the men which came in to thee this night ? Bring them out unto us that we may know them." (vs. 1-5)
Lot tried at all lengths to prevent the Sodomites from 'knowing' these 2 angels. Understanding well the sexual appetites of the Sodomites, Lot even offered his own 2 daughters to the crowd as a substitute for the male angels. The crowd would not accept the 2 daughters, preferring instead the two male angels. The beligerant crowd pushed and shoved at Lot's door, nearly breaking it. The angels ended this raucus crowd's attempts by smiting them with blindness.
In vs 12, the angels told Lot to bring his family out of Sodom, "lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city." (vs 15)
Lot was commanded to escape for his life !
By verse 24 and following, God rained fire and brimstone on the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, killing ALL the inhabitants of these 2 cities.
So, Rev. Jack, if you are interested to see just where these 2 cities were located in Lot's day,, you better find an old, old map. At this point in history, archeology has determined that these 2 cities are located at the bottom of the Dead Sea's southern end, which is currently under the control of the Nation of Jordan.
Yes Jack, the Bible does speak on your chosen topic of homosexual relationships. May God bless the reading of his Holy word.
Romans 1:24-27 (King James Version)
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Every time a justice needs done, the opposite group gets all ired up and pompass saying "the Bible says". Isn't this the book that was NOT written by God or Jesus, and began being penned 20 plus years after Jesus died? Never to be seen again?
Never mind real nature where animals are seen to prefer the mate of the same sex. Nevermind that supposedly we are all Gods children, yet I can't trace my German ancestors to God or Jesus, as geneology has my ancestors here at least a thousand years before the Miracle birth of Jesus. The time when everyone worshiped a God and or Goddess or two. Before the burning times when no one cared about Gay or other.
The BS is a Christian thing .... sad really .......... no Witch ever started a war in the name of religion .... And before you verbally burn me at the stae, again, I did go to Vietnam, not as a concientious objecter, was a MedEvac medic and door gunner, and if that's what God does for HIS children ... you CAN HAVE HIM .....killing is OK but being Gay ain't?
Hogwash
Chaplain CW Loew
House of Wicca
What I think is important to mention here is that not everyone in the United States of America is Christian, not everyone in the United States of America believes in the God of the Christian Bible. So, to quote scripture from the Christian Bible that some interpret as condemnation of homosexuals holds no water in government. I could write a book this year and perhaps have millions of followers. I could write..."well, eating cheese on Thursdays is wrong because the big woman in the sky is lactose intolerant." Just because it is written doesn't make it true AND it doesn't mean that EVERYONE should follow this standard. America is diverse. Diversity makes America great! Why should someone who doesn't believe in or base their life around the Christian Bible be subjected to it's interpreted rules and laws. The Bible says this...no it says this!!! What does it matter when it is not the authority of ALL of the people of the United States? How about we start following the rules and laws of the Quran and modeling our government after that holy book. It is after all the authority in millions of peoples lives around the world as well as in the USA!!!!! Church and State are to be separate!!! Separate them already!!! I and many MANY others are tired of this argument that should hold no volume in a government that is FOR the PEOPLE, BY the PEOPLE....and that means ALL the PEOPLE!!! Some people like ham sandwiches!!! But you don't see those people making everyone else eat ham sandwiches just because it's right for THEM!!! Equal rights means simply this: (do you know what the word "right" really means....DO YOU???) We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. Get it through your head and stop insisting that everyone who likes turkey, or cheese, or tuna, or roast beef should HAVE TO EAT HAM SANDWICHES!!!!!! BECAUSE GOD SAID SO!!!! I just happen to worship the turkey god so tell your ham god to get out of my kitchen!!!
-When I put it that way do you still not see how ridiculous you sound?
By the way. Doesn't the Bible also forbid those who have been divorced to ever marry again? (In some cases of course...there are exceptions to this rule). I sure don't see you enforcing that rule with as much tenacity as you do the "God hates homos" rule!!! If you want to blame your so called downward spiral of the USA (accepting other cultures and peoples as valid members of society and valued human life) on something why don't you look in your own backyard first. Don't eat shellfish, don't touch the skin of a dead pig (that one seems to slip past all the conservative Christian football fans of course...oh except the Dallas Cowboys...they can touch it...they are God's team!) So, if we are going to protect God's laws, let's protect them all, shall we? As for ULC bringing about a one world government...God forbid the world learns to COOPERATE and not start wars over oil!!! "Probably hates Christians," Anonymous? Hate crime bill? Haha! Excuse me for pointing out the oh so dubious flaw in your personal "Christian" philosophy...but you also said, "This is totally Satanic." Now I know being raised in a Christian home the one guy you are to hate is Satan. Therefore, by your declaration that "This is totally Satanic" you have unwittingly admitted to HATING (what a shocker) this church. So, I believe your hate crime bill should be investigated right back towards you and your hateful accusations against people who only want the same rights that this country has afforded you.
Again! I just happen to worship the turkey god so tell your ham god to get out of my kitchen!!!
-When I put it that way do you still not see how ridiculous you sound?
Rev Gary Temple, very well said!
I would like to contribute with your words, proof that we are a Christian nation regardless of what Obama says. This is important with the current debate because it has been brought up on both sides of the issue. Maybe the side saying it basically has no place in this, will see it differently with these facts and opinions.
"Freedom prospers when religion is vibrant and the rule of law under God is acknowledged. When our Founding Fathers passed the First Amendment, they sought to protect churches from government interference. They never intended to construct a wall of hostility between government and the concept of religious belief itself. ... To those who cite the First Amendment as reason for excluding God from more and more of our institutions every day, I say: The First Amendment of the Constitution was not written to protect the people of this country from religious values; it was written to protect religious values from government tyranny." --Ronald Reagan
Recall that our Founders affirmed in the Declaration of Independence "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
In other words, our Creator bestowed the rights enumerated in our Declaration and, by extension, as codified in its subordinate guidance, our Constitution. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are natural rights; they are not gifts from government.
To that end, Alexander Hamilton wrote, "The sacred rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for, among old parchments, or musty records. They are written, as with a sun beam, in the whole volume of human nature, by the hand of the divinity itself; and can never be erased or obscured by mortal power."
But the Left has, for many decades, made its primary objective the eradication of God from every public quarter, and routinely relied on judicial activism to undermine constitutional rule of law and, thus, the natural rights of man.
The intended consequence of this artificial barrier between church and state is to remove knowledge of our Creator from all public forums and, thus, over time, to disabuse belief in a sovereign God and the natural rights He has endowed.
This erosion of knowledge about the origin of our rights has dire implications for the future of liberty.
Thomas Jefferson wrote, "Can the liberties of a nation be thought secure when we have removed their only firm basis, a conviction in the minds of the people that these liberties are the gift of God? That they are not to be violated but with his wrath? Indeed I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever."
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." --October 11, 1798
As the author of our Declaration of Independence makes clear, we should all tremble that man has adulterated the gifts of God. He must have had the foresight to see this day was coming.
I'll end this with our founding fathers meant for this country to follow God's law. God's law says same sex is wrong, an abomination against nature and God. As a Christian, I must follow my God and His Word. Marriage is our tradition by the church, not the gov’t! The gay community is welcome to create their own tradition and ask for same rights as married couples. I would support that. But I will not support the forcing of our traditions, our religions, any change simply because a minority group demands we do so!
Some information extracted from the Patriot Post 14 May, 2009.
Founding Fathers quotes obtained from several sources including the Library of Congress. My favorite source for such is from http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm
Es Spears states "By the way. Doesn't the Bible also forbid those who have been divorced to ever marry again? (In some cases of course...there are exceptions to this rule). I sure don't see you enforcing that rule with as much tenacity as you do the "God hates homos" rule!!!"
First it's real easy to say 2 wrongs don't make a right. But let's look at this scriptually.
“Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be loosed [for selfish reasons]. Are you loosed [divorced] from a wife? [In my opinion says Paul, the Apostle] do not seek a wife. BUT EVEN IF YOU DO MARRY, YOU HAVE NOT SINNED; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned” (1Corinthians 7:26-28a). Notice that the “virgin” AND the person “loosed [divorced]” are both put in the same category — they have “not sinned” by getting married. BOTH THE PERSON WHO WAS NEVER MARRIED AND THE PERSON WHO WAS DIVORCED ARE WITHOUT SIN IF THEY MARRY.
In order to understand that there IS marriage after divorce, we will examine the Scriptures in Matthew 19:3-12 focusing on the usage of the Greek word, apoluo. The Greek word apoluo that’s translated “divorce” or “to put away” is a general word. Its primary usage is: to “send” (apoluo) someone home when it’s getting late.11 When two people are leaving each other there is a “separation.” Apoluo is a separation in general, which does not involve the “legal” aspect of a permanent separation like a divorce. The common usage is seen in the Scripture “When it was evening, His disciples came to Him, saying ‘This is a deserted place, and the hour is already late. SEND (apoluo) the multitudes away, that they may go unto the villages and buy themselves food’” (Matthew 14:15). The Greek word apoluo doesn’t have a legal aspect to it. It’s just a common word that means, “I’m going to go” or, “away from, to separate.” Because of our wrong beliefs about divorce, this key word was purposely translated (incorrectly) so it would not conflict with our beliefs.
When used concerning a marriage it means a separation and NOT a divorce. If a spouse separates intending never to return, then the next step comes into play; the spouse obtains a “certificate of divorce.” This is what the confrontation between Jesus and the Pharisees (the religious lawyers of His day) was about in Matthew 19:3-12. The legal question was, “Do you just separate, OR do you separate AND give a certificate of divorce?” The Greek word used for divorce in these Scriptures means, to “send away” or separate from, NOT a finalized legal divorce.
The lawyers of God’s law tested Jesus. Their motive was to justify when they only separated from their wives and remarried without ever getting a divorce. They asked Him if God accepts a separation to get remarried without a divorce certificate for just any reason. Jesus responded that when a male and female come together in a marriage union, “...they are no longer two BUT ONE…” (Matthew 19:6a). Because the couple is still united, He doesn’t want “man” (the marriage partners) to just separate from each other and get remarried without a divorce. A SEPARATION ALONE DOES NOT BREAK THE MARRIAGE UNION. IT TAKES A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE, ALSO. So the question was NOT, “Can a spouse DIVORCE their mate for any reason,” but “Can a spouse get a SEPARATION from their mate for any reason and then remarry while just separated.”
When a husband just leaves his wife for another woman without ever giving her a certificate of divorce, this keeps the wife in limbo. She could not go back to her husband because he doesn’t want her; and she couldn’t “go and become another man’s wife” as Moses commanded because she is not legally divorced (See Deuteronomy 24:1-2).
I cannot post the entire article that goes with this because of space limitations. See:
http://www.divorcehope.com/canchristiansremarryafterdivorce.htm
EVERYBODY HAS OPINONS,AND MOST ARE BIASED TOWARD WHAT A PERSON BELIEVES,OR HAS BEEN TAUGHT TO BELIEVE.I'M A CHRISTIAN,& I KNOW IT IS NOT FOR ME TO JUDGE MY CO-PEOPLE.THAT IS GODS JOB.I'M JUST TO LOVE OTHERS AS I DO MYSELF.AND WE SHOULD TAKE A GOOD LOOK INTO THE MIRROR BEFORE WE PASS OUR JUDGEMENTS AND HATES ON TO OTHERS.PEACE & HAPPINESS BE WITH YOU ALL...R.HAS
Two people want to spend their lives together, their church can marry them, the government processes the paperwork in order to give this married couple the same benefits, tax rules, etc.
If the church doesn't allow for these two people to get married, that means that this church sees something wrong in one of these two peoples or both. You can't make the church marry these people.
If your church doesn't allow you to get married, you should not be in that Church and you should seek another church. This church sees that there is something wrong with you and or your partner. You are not seen as a regular human being and you are being discriminated.
Some churches have been founded with these beliefs and you can not change this. If you seek, you will find a church that believes that you are a regular human being and have all the rights that every human being is allowed to have.
The job of the government should only be that of record keeping for the purposes of taxes and benefits.
The only reason that the government should get involved with the inner workings of any church is if someone is in danger of or being abused.
If you believe that you are being abused in the form of discrimination, you must remember that you are able to stop this form of abuse by leaving. This form of abuse is mental abuse but you can chose not to continue attending this church.
If this type of abuse is brought to the government, it will most likely be ignored because you can't change what religions believe in. I see that this topic is too complex and it needs further and a more detailed discussion.
I have but a few words to say regarding this issue. For one, I support this action, if not necessarily some of those who have been nominated to spearhead the effort.
Secondarily, I support a man or woman's right to live their lifestyle, so long is it does not bring undue harm to others. This includes the idea that marriage should be extended to those individuals who wish to marry any individual, so long as they are of legal age to marry. Gender should not be a point of discrimination in this.
Tertiarily, this is to speak out to those of you who feel you are righteous when you claim to speak the words of "God." Know this; there are religions that came before the religion of Christianity. Your bible teaches that any non-Christian shall burn in hell, yet it does not speak for those who came before the religion? Were they simply damned because God created them before someone decided to write a book, cataloging what they believe to be the words of your Almighty? Or did God offer exemption to them because he hadn't gotten around to it yet? And if they were damned, where is the mercy?
Know that no man or woman can ever claim to know the true intentions or words of whatever force created this universe. No preacher, no Priest, no faithful devotee can ever know what God said. All they can do is strive to lead good and moral lives, and should they choose to follow a religion, to devote their hearts and souls to it for safekeeping. And it is not immoral for a man to love a man, or a woman to love a woman, when you take the context of a book (written by man and therefore given the potential for flawed understanding) out of the equation.
Best of luck to the LGBT in this endeavor, and my support is with the ULC in this.
Rev. Cody B. Wagar.
Is it possible that I could direct the focus of this blog back to the question that I raised on October 23, at 5:14 pm:
"When did the ULC hold a Church-wide synod to debate its policy on same sex marriage ?"
I raised this point again at 7:13 pm on that same day:
"Are there any active ULC clergy out there who were consulted on this recent letter and brief writing exchange with the President ?"
Naturally this topic is certain to inflame the emotions, as has been amply demonstrated by the debate thus far. However, my question about who in the ULC participated in the letter and brief writing exchange with the President still remains.
Thus far, no one has has even mentioned any information about this question: Is there any ordained member of the ULC who was consulted on this exchange with the President ????
Or,
Was there a (ULC) Church-wide synod to debate its policy on same sex marriage ????
Im upset, and rather sad to see this email come to me about this. If You intend to take the church into such political arenas I forsee further attacks from the supreme court on the founding of this church.
Im disgusted, in that you would think to give any political creedance to Cheney or McCain. Are you genuinely out to retard or disparage the followers of your church within politics? These disgusting bedfellows, need neither our support, nor any attention whatsoever other than fond wishes for their retirement from active politics.
I Support Gay Marriage, but your truly poorly appointed to make such choices in your followers name, when your entire basis of our church was for "to do that which is right", and yet half of your deliberating party cares NOTHING about what is right. I am sad, I expected better than political behavior from our church. Why could you not simply state you will do as you feel, and take the issue of our marrying anyone as accepted within??
This is some poorly initiated perspective that does NOT in any way support our tenenat. I say NAY, and poor conduct on this whole politico involvement.
Rev. Devon J. Murray
Thank you Rev. M. Austin,
"same sex is an abomination against nature and God". There my young liberal ministers is the only truth. To teach any other as truth is false doctrine and you are leading people in the wrong direction for salvation.
Since you brought up the constitution I felt this should be added.
52 of the 56 signers of the Declaration of Independance were Orthodox, deeply committed christians, the others all thought as the Bible as the Devine truth, the God of scripture, and His personal intervention.
I would love to meet all of you in heaven one day but fear many will be lost on the ideas that government and the left wing liberal supporters keep trying to force down our necks by taking away the word of God and replacing it with secular beliefs.
While I am against the choices of all forms of anatomically and biologically unsound sexual practices, the choice doesn't make the individual. When you're wrong, you have to take responsibility for it; BUT, absolutely NOBODY needs to, or should, die of anything besides natural causes, unless they pose a threat to their society in general. The L.G.B.T. people I've known in my life, for the vast majority of the part, do NOT pose a threat to others. They practice their choices privately, and with other consenting adults. We, who are true followers of the Christ, have NO RIGHT to force anyone to conform. All we can do is tell them why we believe they're wrong, what we believe their naturally-occurring consequences will be, and how we believe they can avoid it. Murder, based on a mere mistake or harmless private rebellion, is NOT acceptable for humans. We are NOT either capable of, or deserving of, the responsibility to judge ANYONE... especially in that manner. God alone should be the one who decides who lives and dies; let-alone when, where, why and how we die, and what takes our lives.
Is there anyone who will comment on the issue that I have repeatedly raised above ........ did the ULC clergy have any input into someone's decision relevant to the Church's position of same-sex marriage ? Please, can you give me some help here ?
I agree 100% percent with the church's strong stance on this issue. The one thing about the letter that for some reason bothers me, is that nearly every quote is one of Dr. King. He was a great man and said many great things but in a way it almost feels like pandering. It could be nothing, I just feel like it may be seen as a blatant attempt to win the heart of our nation's most powerful and influential figure because he is or at least partially a black man. I mean no disrespect. I think the letter is both profound and noteworthy. I just fear how things could be construed by people on the side of the table.
I'm a true Christian and I follow the lifestyle of Jesus. Jesus wasn't a bigot and loved everyone equally and promoted the same.
Do "Christians" nowadays truly believe that the ONE true God, the creator; would discriminate against love and happiness for an individual?
Christians need to follow the lifestyle of Jesus, who never preached 'against' homosexuals, stop with the bigotry and crude 20th Century behavior and begin actually working in Hospitals and Church Ministries again if you care so passionately about your religion. That is where attention needs to be focused. Not on blocking the pearly gates to those you don't know or understand. Open your eyes.
As for the Monastery needing to hold a "Church Meeting" to discuss Gay Marriage, are you kidding me? It is a sacrament which the ULC from the beginning has understood to be shared equally by everyone. No need for discussion. This church is about religious tolerance, not judgment.
We are all children of the same God, and whomever that God may truly be; it treats all of it's children equally.
Jesus, help these misguided souls see past their own logic already so that we can get back to focusing on the real issues of the church. -Amen
Having read more of the above comments, I feel compelled to make another statement. When it comes to the nature of gay people, I believe strongly that it is exactly that, Nature. There are indeed sexual deviants in this world. But to say that every gay man or woman chooses to be gay would be like saying they chose persecution and hatred. What rational person makes that decision. It would be like choosing to be Jewish in Nazi Germany. Rationality may not be a strong presence in the masses but I do think that most individuals possess the capacity to make rational decisions. I would also like to pose a question to those of you that quote The Bible as having an opinion against gay marriage. Have any statements or things you've done in your life ever been construed and twisted when the information was passed along a grapevine of say as little as 4 or 5 people? I would venture to say that you answer would be yes. Now this is my personal belief as every one of us has to right to one; but doesn't it seem likely that through thousands of years, thousands of hands and thousands of translations that some things could have been changed or misinterpreted? I think the notion of man and woman speaks more strongly to the duality of our universe. Man, Woman; Good, Evil; Light, Dark. There are two sides to everything. I don't know what God's opinion is on homosexuality, he hasn't told me. However I do know that God and Nature often create things that go against that which is considered to be the norm. These creations take place everyday. How is being gay any different. With no disrespect at all to the gay community, call it a genetic abnormality if that's what it takes to get people to understand that people are indeed born gay! I'm tired of right wing religious groups (and yes I said "right wing" because there is ABSOLUTELY a right and left in religion) telling me that I'm wrong and that I will burn in hell for my opinion. God may have given us a basic set of guidelines but he also gave us a mind. I can't speak for the rest of you but I use my mind and my consciousness to form my opinions. I don't base my beliefs blindly on something written in a very likely misinterpreted book. May the Lord stike me dead as I sit in this chair and type this sentence if I am wrong for questioning and thinking for myself! Finally to Rev. Michael A. Coates, I firmly stand behind your statement that the anonymous should "Cowboy up and own their opinion."
Sincerely,
Rev. Kyle Cusick,DD
You have my support. We (especially clergy) are not to judge but to serve!
I'd say that there is a lot of confusing cross-channel communication going on here .....
Some of the posters here want to debate the issue of homosexual unions, while others want to debate the religious propriety of gay relationships, while still others raise the legal issue of same-sex marriage laws. Each topic is somehow different than the others.
Some posters on here want to study these topics from a Biblical perspective, while some others like Kyle challenge the very existence and veracity of the Bible. Some have correctly pointed out that there are numerous religions, each with their own beliefs that must be respected or protected.
The reality is that if I am a member of the Universal Pumpkin Church, which bases its beliefs on the writings of Chairman Mao, then debate with a Bible believing member of the Christian Church is impossible because there is no basis of understanding between the foundational writings of these two (antithetical) religions.
As a member of the Universal Pumpkin Church, it is not fitting for me to challenge the very existence of, and to denigrate the veracity of Chairman Mao's foundational writings. If I don't believe in Mao's writings, then I am free to disassociate myself from the Pumpkins and to associate with another, or no other, religion in which I can believe.
For those like Kyle who choose to not accept the unpopular teachings of the Bible, I support your right to choose whatever religion it is that to you seems suitable. Some may find the need to start their own unique custom made religions that meet the needs of humanistic theology.
However Kyle, what is intellectually dishonest is to cling to some Bible messages that you like, like love one another (for example), and to then vilify the unpopular message of the Bible that homosexual activity is sinful.
You can try to shoot the messenger of the Bible (The Holy Spirit), if you like, but what you can't do Kyle, is to eliminate the existence of places named Sodom and Gomorrah that still exist to this day, albeit under the water of the Dead Sea.
Neither Chairman Mao nor anyone else can ever change the unmistakable lesson to be learned from ancient history as can be read within the pages of the Bible and found at the bottom of the DEAD Sea.
Rev Gary Temple: No, no one contacted me concerning supporting or not supporting the letter to the president. I believe the church should have stayed out of it considering our wide diverse Pastors. Watch what happens now. Obama will approve this and some same sex couple will come to you or me or another likeminded Rev, who will decline to marry them. They will take it to court for discrimination and they will win, thus costing us what we have personally obtained in life. It has already happened with a Christian church in CA.
Rev Cody: as I stated in my first post, I am not judging the gay community and frankly I haven't seen a lot of people judging them. I have seen people stand up for what they believe in, which IS this church's directive, that anyone may worship who or what THEY believe. Our belief in this church is that everyone has the right to believe and worship their God, in their way. Being a Christian, I believe the sexual acts are wrong according to God's word and Jesus' word for the one who said be like Jesus.
Those of us taking this position are being trashed simply because we believe differently from them, which is against the belief of this church! I have posted scripture in my post to refute what someone else said derogatory to those of us against it or those of us who are Christian. I didn’t post scripture that said they will burn in hell, nor did I condemn them to the depths of hell. That is not my place to do so. I simply quoted scripture to show what it is I and others believe and why. These are the words we follow. What God does concerning gay people is up to God. My job is to spread the Word of God as it was given to me.
Marriage is our tradition and we are standing up to defend our tradition. In the past we have been more accepting of the gay community just as we were asked. But they push and push and take more than most of us are willing to give. We have met them and offered suggestions that would work for all, but they were not happy with that. They choose not to compromise in any way. This left me with no choice but to stand my ground based on MY beliefs in MY God just as our church states. I don't knock you for your beliefs and as a Rev of this church, I would expect the same respect from you. Instead I see anger, pity and condescending remarks. This is not good for our church. It is ok for us to have areas we disagree on. This is one of the reasons our church exists! We can have different understandings of the Word, or a completely different religion or spiritual understanding. We all need to respect each other’s opinion and beliefs.
Once again, as I mentioned, I will support and help in any way I can for gays to have the same rights as married couples as long as they call it something other than marriage. This is OUR tradition, not theirs. You certainly wouldn't ask a Jew or a Muslim to change their tradition to suit a small group of people! This is no different.
I love my brothers and sisters in this world, Christian or not, and always pray for them regardless of who they are or what they are. As a member in good standing of this church, I respect any other beliefs, but that doesn't mean I believe the same. That's the beauty of this church. We are, within ourselves, a very diverse group, who has more tolerance than any other. That means I respect your right to believe what you wish to believe and I expect the same in return.
With that said, I cannot in good conscience marry a same sex couple because it is against what I believe. The most I can do for them is to refer them to the church so they may find someone else who believes the way they do.
There are those in the world who say LBGT, or even other types of people, are being grafted on to either efforts to change faith deposits of assorted kinds, or are being grafted on to efforts to advance negative atheism, or both.
These seem incredibly aristocratic notions, perhaps used by assorted parties to effect control of one philosophy (ies) or another(s), or perhaps to play one kind against another, and so on. Certainly like anything else pro- or con- anything at all, LBGT and any other demographic(s) may be found in any public forum including religious and atheistic poses.
But that does not mean LBGT or anyone else should be perceived through philosophical stereotypes, just because any person(s) of any status may enjoy more ability or financial power can paint anyone any way(s) they for their own purpose(s) seek.
In re LBGT particularly, it robs such persons of dignity and ethical consideration to say they cannot marry because of religious reasons even if the highest secular Courts declare that lawfully they may; on the other side of the coin, so many jurisdictions within the USA alone are making ANY officiant in ANY marriage surplusage in ANY event, that many marriages between men and women can be made lawfully and religiously incontestable just by the man and woman signing and filing their own license under law where applicable…there is no rising tide of religious indignation alleging that somehow a marriage without God or His spokesperson present tears society apart, will or will not lead to procreation or mutual respect between such couples, or result in evil(s); further, what, if any, religion tells its members their marriage is annulled and ex post facto void before God when a male and female couple just don’t produce offspring of their own? Who says ovarian or uterine cancer, miscarriage, death of one or the other spouse, choice or financial circumstances, adoption instead, staying single, and so on, are such basis for failure to reproduce as to incur the wrath of God, be tossed out of the faith, or both?
Clearly, in the broadest everyday sense, marriage for the purpose of procreation is not THE drive of most faiths. This does not appear to support relevant religious “fear” that non-procreation in LBGT couples would therefore create a heinous sin crying out to Heaven; like anyone else, it remains clear that LBGT are best defined by the larger societal impacts each soul makes, not by the flag, banner, body, clothes, skin, race, philosophy, or anything else existing apart from the soul.
So much for opining on what “open source” philosophical salients appear to be. In my own perception, I simply would not want to go to my God at the end of my natural life and say something like: “I kept LBGT souls, or anyone else big shots or some manipulator said had cooties, from marrying, and further…as couples or individuals…I put myself between ANYONE AT ALL and Christ, or between anyone at all’s God as same has in peace revealed unto them, or both, since we all know You don’t want to hear from the wrong kind of souls Yourself in worship and peaceful faith living, right, God?”.
To reiterate, I see no philosophically sound basis for opposing LBGT marriage in general, nor for pretending moral stereotyping(s) of them, nor for barring the way of those LBGT who desire it to keep on seeking the voice of the Absolute in whatever faith they may wish to practice and be edified by on their souls’ eternal journeys…just like all the rest of us are free to manifest any religious belief or unbelief without stigmas like “it’s their way or my way or atheism, populist-take-all-in-totalism in any case” attached by anyone.
The goal of every peaceful faith is to bring people to the Absolute, not to me, any clergy, any king, any president, or secular licensee or politician, and to leave people free to decide which road in eternity they take selected through activity manifested as they invent, assent, or ignore in their quest for truth; again, nothing seems to make such quest unavailable to LBGT.
I am a believer in JESUS CHRIST and GOD ALL MIGHTY. I believe marriage should be between a man and a woman. It is not normal for a man to marry a man or a woman to marry a woman. It is against what the BIBLE teaches.
Sir or Madam,
I don't recall having received any survey asking me of my opinion on this matter. Nor of one asking me if I think the church should send the President a letter. Just because I am a member and have been ordained by the Universal Life Church does not give church management the right to speak "on my behalf" or use my association as an automatic endorsement of the political whims of church management.
As it so happens, I agree with your position. However, I do not agree that we should have any contact with the President nor of any other office of government.
Our "rights", come from God. We do not need the permission or endorsement of any man or Government body. Those who wish to marry, and those of us who will marry them, shall do so as we choose. To even suggest that the Government has any power over us - gives them power over us.
And what have you gained by seeking the presidents permission? A standard form letter, pulled out of a drawer. The aid who wrote your address didn't even bother to type it. It's likely that the President didn't even read it - or your original letter. In all likelihood, he signed it along with 500 other letters that day - all of which, he didn't read.
Should you wish to send any more letters on my behalf, or use my association as an endorsement, I hope that you will contact me about it first. It would be unfortunate if I had to end my association with ULC, or worse, lobby against you.
Sincerely,
Rev. Michael E. Pipkins
Thanks to those (3) ULC ministers who have answered my informal and imprecise survey poll ..... In the issue of the principle of State separation from the Church, I couldn't agree more with the points raised by Rev. Michael E. Pipkins. And I should also liike to thank Rev. Michael Austin for the thoughtful points that he raised.
Nonetheless, a clear pattern has emerged from my poll .... no one from 'on high' has querried ANY of the rank and file ULC clergy about this matter. This is sad. A Church wide synod should have been called so that those who perform the marriages could have debated all aspects of this issue. Very sad.
You have my full support with this,we are all equal,that means everyone,period.REV.glenn.
Marriage is for a man and a woman. End of discussion.
Those who do not stick with the teachings of the Bible are doomed, and those that follow such teachings are doomed, as well. Those reading these pages, please understand that while some use the word "church" to proliferate their humanistic and satanic beliefs, they do not exhibit the meaning of the true church of Christ. If it doesn't follow the Word of God, it is *not* the Word of God.
What the bible says is true. Jesus is the only God and any sexual act outside the marriage of one man and one woman is a sin and wrong. Follow the word or pay in the end. Teach it right and remember. Jesus, it is hell without Him.
I don't care how one CHOOSES to live their lifestyle but gay people weren't made that way by GOD! It is a lifestyle choice! I believe in TRADITIONAL MARRIAGE between a MAN and a WOMAN! I do oppose a Defense Of Marriage Act because putting gay and lesbian people back in the closet is WRONG and I support the repeal of Don't Ask Don't Tell.
What is the matter with you people? Just because you call yourselves a church a say the word God doesn't make you christian. How overwhelmingly sad that you dare call yourselves Christian and support Gay rights. The bible is very clear on God's stance with homosexuality. Romans 1:24-28 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another They exchanged the truth of God for a lie. Because of this God gave them over to their shameful lusts even women exchanged NATURAL relations for UNNATURAL. In the same way menalso abandoned NATURAL relations WITH A WOMEN and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men and received in themselves the due perialty for their perversion. So God gave them over to a depraved mind to do what ought not be done.
This is the law of Our God and Savior it is unnatural and offensive to God and should be to each person who calls themselves a "christian". There is a huge differance between loving the person and hating the sin. God commands us to love the Gay person but to hate the act of homosexuality which is a grave sin against him. Because it hurts the person indulging in it and that breaks Gods heart. God didn't make them gay! His word is very clear on that to say he made them gay is to say he made a mistake and God cannot make a mistake he is perfect for he is not a man but perfect complete God of the universe so please STOP giving true Christians a bad name and harming the precious name of God for your beliefs.
No matter what the bible says, there are NO rights taken away by the current law. Everyone right now HAS all the same rights and priveledges. Looks like someone has forgotten that marriage and love is NOT the same thing. Love involves sex and the creation (NOT adoption) of children. If you cannot create children in your current situation, you really do not love one another.
On the other hand, marriage is nothing more than a paper that says on a divorce, the other party gets half of what you own. Maybe it is time to realize that everyone in the Unites States already have all the current rights and priveledges as pertaining to the current law and get on with their life and stop wasting time fretting about it.
"Love involves sex and the creation (NOT adoption) of children. If you cannot create children in your current situation, you really do not love one another."
So... does this mean I need to have sex with my mother before we can love each other?
When did the ULC become strictly Christian? All these refences to what is writen in the Bible about Gays is astonishing! Think about the mentality of the people in Biblical times (both Old and New Testament). They would have been terrified of the car, and shunned me because of my tattoos and pierced ears. Neither are sinful. Let's think Spiritually for a bit. God, no matter what you call her/him, wants us to love and respect one another, and accept one another's beliefs and feelings. God made every one of us in her/his image, and since God is all things, and is all good, how can Gays be any less than straights? How many more studies and tests have to be done that prove that Gays are "Made that way" must be done before this fact is accepted to be true? Gays deserve to be married and have the same rights as everyone else. Remember: Judge not, lest ye be judged. I sure wouldn't be picking up the first stone...
IF WE HAVE OUR LAWS CHANGED TO ACCOMMODATE SAME SEX MARRIAGE, WHICH IS FORNICATION, AND SODOMY DEPENDING ON WHICH SEX IS HAVING SEX WITH THEIR BROTHER OR SISTER, THEN WE SHOULD HAVE A LAW THAT OKAYS PERVERTS,RAPISTS,Pedophiles, ADULTERERS, ETC. THE GOD OF THIS WORLD, THE ONE WHO WILL JUDGE ALL WHO RESIDE HERE, NO MATTER WHAT FALSE GOD THEY WORSHIP, BY HIS LAWS AND NOT ONES MADE UP BY MAN. AUGUE,INTELLECTUALIZE,PHILOSOPHIZE ALL YOU WANT TO, WHEN THE TIME COMES AND YOU HAVE TO STAND BEFORE THE GOD WHO CREATED THIS WORLD FOR YOU TO LIVE ON, YOU WON'T BE ABLE TO ARGUE WITH HIM. HE SENT HIS HOLY SCRIPTURES AS A GUIDE TO SHOW YOU THE MISTAKES MAN HAS MADE AND TO TELL YOU WHAT HE EXPECTS OF YOU. YOUR ARGUMENTS WON'T HOLD A DROP OF WATER.
Rev. Dorothy,
your body is your temple and should be treated as such. It has always been easier to say something is made that way than it is to accept responsibility for ones lack of morals. In nature a dog will hump on anything, but that is a dog, an animal, and it is not bound to the same laws that God has given man.
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Quite a few posts above on this blog I wrote (among other things):
"For those like Kyle who CHOOSE to not accept the unpopular teachings of the Bible, I support their right to choose whatever 'religion' it is that to them seems suitable. Some may find the need to start their own unique custom-made 'religions' that meet the needs of humanistic theology."
In other words I said to Kyle, if you don't want to believe in the Bible, that is your own choice to make. Kyle, and others like him, can each create their own unique 'designer religions' that are custon-made and expedient for their own humanistic objectives and lifestyle choices.
For myself, rather than building a new designer religion tailored to my own lifestyle choices, I have choosen to accept the Bible as the basis for the Christian faith; to study this Bible, and to live (as best that I can) according to its teachings.
Thus Rev. Geoff, while there can be multiple Revs. on here, each preaching their own doctrines according to themselves, co-existing peacefully right alongside the Bible believers, that is NOT to say that the Bible-based Christian religion is compatable in any way with any purported teachings from these new-fangled humanistic designer religions.
There isn't even any common basis for debating. Kyle will debate from the perspective of his own designer religion that has no ancient writings and which exists only as a unique invention in his own mind, and I will debate him from a context of the written words contained in the Bible.
Therefore, a 'Kyle" type mentality and I can only agree that we disagree, and to do that in a civil manner.
Now, what I find TRULY astonishing, is that the Rev. Dorthy-Claire J finds it astonishing to find "All these refences to what is writen in the Bible about Gays ...." on a religious based blog ..... Go figger.
Rev. Temple.
Respectfully, please don't criticise others or talk down to them because they don't believe the same way you believe. Chances are they've thought just as hard about how to live their life as you have, yours, and you wouldn't like it if we tried to knock your beliefs.
To man, the "right" religion is subjective, and the idea that the human race has been reinventing and philosophizing on religion since the dawn of time, is reason enough to question things.
Christianity and it's ancient texts are certainly not the oldest.
It's insulting (and embarrassing) when a Christian calls himself "civil" but then talks down other people's beliefs using cute little quotes to say that their religion isn't as real as yours, and phrases like "new-fangled humanistic designer religions" just make you sound like you live your life on a pedestal.
Like it or not, but my "designer religion" is simply to respect myself and others, and to look at all the religions of the world, and take hints from them as to how to learn to make the best of life here on Earth.
Dear Rev. Dorothy-Clare J,
I don't recall anyone saying or implying that the Universal Life Church was only Christian. The people who have joined this church, did so with the understanding everyone is free to worship who or what in their own way. It just happens that many who have replied happen to be Christian who are expressing their belief.
I certainly don't mean by my posts that I expect you to believe the same way I do. It wasn't written to convert anyone. I wrote it to express my belief and my opinion.
I don't believe the same way anonymous does in that you can't love someone unless you produce children. As open minded as I am, I think that statement is absolutely ridiculous. I love my parents, my siblings, my pets, my friends and yet I don't have sex with any of them! I also love my best male friend, like a brother. It doesn't mean I'm attracted to him, but it does mean I would stand up for him any time any where. Or as they say on TV, I love them all enough to "take a bullet for them".
As for how many more tests must be done to show gays are made that way, none in my opinion, because I've talked at length with my gay friends and they each have said they could marry the opposite sex and lead a normal life. They don't because they choose to be with the opposite sex. So you can believe what you've seen on TV programs or you can go straight to the source, as I did. I believe my friends over some TLC program. There will be some who claim to be born that way, but I wonder if that's just wishful thinking on their part because they heard it somewhere and it helps them to accept what they want to do is ok.
Even knowing it's their choice, I still respect their choice even if I don't agree with it. It isn't up to me to judge them.
Personally, I think it's wrong to define oneself by what they do sexually. Who cares? I certainly don't. It's information I don't need to enjoy a conversation with someone or to work by their side. Straight people don't openly describe themselves by their preference in position or whatever else they may do or use in their sexual activity. It's information not needed, same as whether someone is gay or not. Being gay does not entitle someone to special treatment so why is it necessary to even bring up? Born that way or by choice, it's simply information that isn't pertinent in everyday conversation.
Those who scream to the world about their private life do so by choice. That's their prerogative, but they shouldn't expect everyone to agree with them simply because they want them to. Fortunately, we are allowed to have our own beliefs in this country.
As I've stated before, for purposes of gov't, I will stand with the gays that they should have the same rights as couples do, as long as they create their own tradition and call it something other than marriage. Marriage is already used by a group and it isn't right to demand they change their traditions for something they believe is wrong. I'll bet you dinner that you would have more heterosexual support if it was called something else and they simply asked for same rights as married couples.
Our church is made up of a vast array of people and beliefs because we do believe people have the right to choose who and how they worship. Because there is such diversity among the members of this church, I think it was wrong for the church to take a position to the gov't without consulting the people who make up and support the church. This is the problem I had with organized religion and why I was happy to find Universal Life. I would be quite saddened to learn Universal Life Church was going to become like the rest of the organized religions and unions who use global funds or choose an issue regardless of how their members believe. Individuals have the right to express THEIR belief. Each individual with Universal Life has their own church. I could write to the President from MY church, but not from the Universal Life as a whole. I would expect the same from the home office.
Wow. This whole issue has turned around like it always has in every single debate just like this. It hurts my heart to hear you speak to each other this way.
The only thing I have to say is this: I was basically thrown out of my church for an issue similar to this. There was a little boy about 14, in my youth group and he was gay. He came to me crying and screaming that he couldn't help how he felt. If being gay really was a choice that boy would have been checking out women from that very moment. But he didn't...and couldn't. He asked me if he were going to be going to hell because he heard that being gay was an abomination to the Lord and he wanted to go to heaven. Reguardless to the years that I have had it shoved down my throat that it was wrong, I could not find the words to tell this boy, whom I watched grow literally from an infant to the cusp of young adulthood, that he was going to die and burn in hell. All I could say to him was that all I knew was that God loved him very much and that he was His child. I realized at that moment THAT was the answer. Id it right or wrong? I DON'T KNOW, and none of us do. Some can say that God has told them, or they just feel it in their heart, as I feel something similar. But what do you say that those who have the same strong feelings of the opposite? That they are wrong and you right???
This whole discussion has lost what it is. Tolerance and love. We are to love everyone. If people are doing things that we disapprove of, we still love these people. Do I believe that gay marriage should be legalized? I don't know, and this is why I am not in the place to institute these laws, and I have pity on the men and women that do.
Reguardless of the outcome, ladies and gentlemen, remember who we are, and what we do. We spread the Word and Love with EVERYONE...this is all that should matter. You don't have to like it, but love them and your brothers and sisters reguardless
There are people who believe in God and people who do not. It is not upto me to judge the people who do not believe in God, that is upto God. If you do believe in God then you follow Gods rules as you have been taught by your Church. Those that do not follow God still deserve the same rights granted by the GOVERMENT, not those of the Church. Things such as benefits and insurance, in case of medical emergencies to be able to decide for your spouses treatment. These and many more are needed. Leave the religion out, this is about rights as people. We cannot push our religoius beliefs on people who do not believe the same as we do. They have the right to live as they see is right and should not be denied equall treatment under the law.
there is a box on the site asking about if we believe in the churchs' stance on same sex marriage...
i would ask the question.... what church? of which one do you speak of all the church's ... there are many opinions...and so it is up to the people to decide...and then to implement...we are not lame..we know how to feed ourselves, clothe ourselves, and hopefully express our selves... there are milestones in every culture and trend...its up to the people to unite, and free ourselves from the oppression "permission"
Please...This is wrong & Obama knows it..Cant belive i voted for this douchebag. I was so naive..
I give all of you lovely lovely seeking souls permission...to live...to love ...to express...freely..without threat of any harm...as long as what you do does not hurt, harm or injure another... christians, feel free to practice your due diligence, just please leave those who do not take interest in your religion alone, for your opinions and your words are expressly yours and hold no value other than your own judgement, stop wasting your time condemning what nature has put on this planet, and find your peace, your prosperity, your love, your wholiness, you too deserve all the best that life can offer, and so much is done through positive than through negativity, and insult. can we not live and let live? the bible is holy to the christian, and is the youngest popular religion, even younger than paganism...for centuries this planet did not have christianity, and it seems, humanity has found a way to not only be in the good graces of god and prosper..but also brng ourselves to the brink of destruction through our divisive tendencies...
i can say truly and with authority, that hate in any form is of darkness... and darkness is of light...so if a religion wants to spew hate to mask its fear of light and love... than well, it is what it is and it will be seen as such. let history be the judge of christianity...it hasnt been around long enough...and just as other myths and ideologies have faded away...so to can an obsolete outdated way of thinking..
which is typically the christian path.
to judge, and point fingers.. and try to tell others what they can and cannot do... tisk tisk...
let ur religion be love...let your church be ur home and your family...let your devotion be to the betterment of humanity..in its plethora of amazing beings, of all cultures, religions, and creeds... love u all
be peace..love and share it.... even if you gotta force it...do it...just do it...
if ur wondering... i was born a jew...
raised in the christian church, which the pastor molested and beat his children...
and still... i am not a christian nor a jew... i am divine.... having a human experience...
and wow....what a ride ;O) be nice... cuz no matter who u r... someone out there desperetly loves and adores you
just let em in...let love in ur life..
than u too will want all of gods children to feel happy, and content with the way GOD MADE THEM....
John 14:6
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
Stop listening to the false prophets and read your Bibles people.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
Not children of the universe, but creations of He who made the universe. There's no Life outside of Christ. The banner you're waving is the banner of Satan. Repent, and return to the Living God. The Rock of Israel.
I truly think you kids are wonderful. However, our founders understood the importance of separating church and state. Now run along, my little darlings.
First Amendment to the United States Constitution, which reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ." The modern concept often credited to the writings of English philosopher John Locke, the phrase "separation of church and state" is generally traced to an 1802 letter by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptists, where Jefferson spoke of the combined effect of the Establishment Clause and the Free Exercise Clause of the First Amendment. It has since been quoted in several opinions handed down by the United States Supreme Court
Doesnt say anything about the seperation of church and state in the Constitution!
What "Washington is doing right now is total bull..The hate bill(freedom of speech)&
In Violation of the Constitution: Obama Takes On Chairmanship of UN Security Council
Text size
Right Soup
September 14, 2009
Some unprecedented news today, folks. Never in the history of the United Nations has a U.S. President taken the chairmanship of the powerful UN Security Council. Perhaps it is because of what could arguably be a Constitutional prohibition against doing so. To wit: Section 9 of the Constitution says:
No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.
It started w/ bush and it didnt end there, obama is doing the same damn thing. look it up for yourself www.Infowars.com
As far the marriage thing goes Guys need lovin too..right, right..Form a union people. You dont need the words "Marrage".
Stand for liberty or fall to tyranny
not allowing post
Diversity in Evolution
is common, me thinks.
diversity in Unions of diverse individuals.
Gender,religion,ethnicity.Nature vs Nuture.
And visa versa.
Nothwithstanding , as long as both are able to call themselves concious thinking beings . It would seem to be rather self serving of of anyone ,other than those involved in the union.to voice an opinion ,contrary to those participating.
Thank you and best
wishes in this matter.
pissed off much?You cant handal the truth.
"The pen is rrrrrroyyyal BLUE"
The truth shall set you free!
People may change, Lots of churches may change , But Gods rules and Commandments never change...He is a Holy God
Might as well disband this church and make it a Country Club..Churches should stand for morality and Gods Laws. Otherwise they are just a manmade institution and some not very good ones~
This truly sickens me. How can u alter Gods laws and commandments to suit your own needs?
FIRST OFF, DON'T BE DECEIVED BY THOSE ON HERE WITH "REV" IN FRONT OF THEIR NAME, BECAUSE THE BIBLE SAYS NO MAN SHALL BE CALL REVEREND.
AND TO ALL WHO BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE, HOMOSEXUALITY IS A SIN PERIOD.
IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN THE BIBLE, THEN WHY DO YOU WANT "MARRIAGE" WHICH THE GOD THAT YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN GAVE US, THE PEOPLE WHO DO BELIEVE. YOU CAN'T SAY, I DON'T BELIEVE IN THAT BOOK, BUT GIVE ME WHAT GOD PROMISES PEOPLE IS THAT BOOK. MARRIAGE SHOULD BE A MYTH TO YOU, SUCH AS THE REST OF THE BIBLE IS.
TO BELIEVERS WHO SUFFER FROM HOMOSEXUALITY, JUST PRAY AND BE DELIVERED. IT IS NOTHING BUT ANOTHER TEMPTATION, THAT YOU NEED NOT GIVE INTO.
WHAT'S NEXT? AFTER HOMOSEXUALITY BECOMES OKAY, THEN THE PEDOFILES WILL SEEK RIGHTS TO HAVE SEX WITH UNDER AGED CHILDREN? I MEAN, AFTER ALL, THERE ARE SOME COUNTRIES WHO ALLOW IT, SO WHO'S TO SAY THAT OUR U.S. AGE OF 18 SHOULD BE THE LEGAL AGE?
THAT'S EXACTLY WHY WE ARE TO FOLLOW GOD'S LAWS THAT DON'T CHANGE. BECAUSE AS YOU SEE, MAN KEEPS CHANGING LAWS TO FIT PEOPLES PERSONALITIES.
AND FOR THOSE WHO CLAIM TO BELIEVE SO MUCH IN THE UNIVERE AND NATURE........HAS IT EVER OCCURED TO YOU, THAT IF EVERYONE IN THE WORLD TURNED GAY, THE WORLD WOULD END WITHIN 100 YEARS? NOW DID UR NATURE OR UNIVERSE CREATE IT LIKE THAT, OR DID THE GOD WHO CREATED ALL MAKE IT THAT WAY, WHICH ALSO HAPPENS TO AGREE WITH HIS LAWS IN THE BIBLE.
DON'T PICK EVIL OVER GOOD. I'M SURE YOU STARTED OFF FIGHTING THE HOMOSEXUAL TEMPTATION. APPARENTLY IT BECAME SO STRONG THAT YOU GAVE UP, AND FIGURED IT WOULD BE EASIER TO FIGHT THE LAWS THAT PROHIBIT HOMOSEXUALITY, RATHER THAN FIGHT HOMOSEXUALITY ITSELF.......WRONG!
Lets see here..marriage came about before Christianity. Marriage didn't start at the birth of Jesus nor did it come about because of Christianity. Marriage is a part of every religion. Many of those religions are older than Christianity...I hate it when "Christians" claim marriage was their idea...um no. History proves that wrong. True Christians don't hate but love. There are a few of them, I have seen it.
Good claim, From a christain stand point i will fight for what i belive in..
What about the people out there who hate christmas for what it stands for. this is a war against the christains.
My church "Pentecostal" i go to they let in anybody in wheather there gay or not. Because god can work on the heart. So dont tell me that christains are evil.
I think it is wonderful what you are doing. Do NOT allow the haters of the world to stand in your way. You are doing the right thing. I and I am sure I am not alone, am very proud of what you are doing.
While the Bible does address homosexuality, it does not explicitly mention gay marriage/same-sex marriage. It is clear, however, that the Bible condemns homosexuality as an immoral and unnatural sin. Leviticus 18:22 identifies homosexual sex as an abomination, a detestable sin. Romans 1:26-27 declares homosexual desires and actions to be shameful, unnatural, lustful, and indecent. First Corinthians 6:9 states that homosexuals are unrighteous and will not inherit the kingdom of God. Since both homosexual desires and actions are condemned in the Bible, it is clear that homosexuals “marrying” is not God’s will, and would be, in fact, sinful.
What it comes down to is the fact that love is of the heart and marriage is of the goverment, church does not control marriage, people can not be legally married without a licence from the state of the event so the arguement is mute. Marriage is a binding contract between the state and the couple named, people can believe and I stand up to say people should be able to love who they choose but to expect changes in law and traditions to accomadate them is not realistic. Oh Rev. Temple I was not asked my position of this matter before being used as a pawn in this scam either.
You know, it's rather sad when a pagan such as myself has a better concept and better knowelege of the scriptures than the average Christian, and apparently, most of the various Ministers who have been posting here. Yes, the Bible does state that homosexuality (at least by choice) is a sin. However, it also says, "Judge not, lest ye be judged", and that "He who is without sin may cast the first stone". It also says that only GOD himself may judge any man. Is not a person's life and their choices between them and God? So who are we, as mere imperfect beings to judge anyone? Is it worse to fornicate with a person of the same sex than to have premarital sex period? I know so many people who call themselves Christians, who think nothing of having sex outside of marriage, but yet condem someone because he/she is gay. Scripture teaches the only unforgivable sin is suicide. An I don't even subscribe to that, since most people who do such are mentally unstable, so is he condemned for all eternity? I don't think so. Anyway, it is not for any person to pass judgement on another. How we each live our life, so long as we "Harm None" is between us, and whatever Diety we pray to. And how come everyone who disagrees with this site is afraid to post who they are? Can you not support your veiwpoint? I can, even if you want scripture.
Know the Truth, and the Truth shall Set you Free
This is but one (1) verse of numerous “Holy” Bibles written by MAN. The burning issue in this forum is like the Apes in Planet of the Apes “is the Word nothing else is TRUTH…Holy and given to man by God…..Not true children.
The most popular Bibles
Septuagint - 250 C.E. Written in Greek
Vulgate- 400 C.E. First version of the Bible which is canonized at the Council of Carthage in 400 C.E. Written in Latin
Luther's German Bible- 1534 C.E.
King James Version- 1611 C.E. This is the most widely used versions however it has large number of errors given that none of the writers had a decent understanding of Hebrew.
Revised Standard Version- 1952 C.E. Liberal translation into American English which used the earliest possible text
New International Version- 1960's & 70's C.E. This is a conservative, contemporary English version
Jerusalem Bible- 1966 C.E. This is the first version of the Bible to be commissioned by the Catholic Church since the 400's.
New Revised Standard Version- 1990 C.E. This is the most academic and scholarly version with the most accurately possible translations of the original text.
Bible Verses
Gay Lovers in the Bible?
Some religious liberals believe that David and Jonathan had a consensual homosexual relationship - in many ways, a prototype of many of today's gay partnerships. 7 Some important verses which describe their relationship are:
1 Samuel 18:1
"...Jonathan became one in spirit with David and he loved him as himself." (NIV)
"...the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul" (KJV)
1 Samuel 18:2
"From that day, Saul kept David with him and did not let him return to his father's house." (NIV)
1 Samuel 18:3-4
"And Jonathan made a covenant with David because he loved him as himself. Jonathan took off the robe he was wearing and gave it to David, along with his tunic, and even his sword, his bow and his belt." (NIV)
Since people in those days did not wear underwear, Jonathan stripped himself naked in front of David. That would be considered extremely unusual behavior (then and now) unless their relationship was sexual in nature.
1 Samuel 18:20-21
"Now Saul's daughter Michal was in love with David, and when they told Saul about it, he was pleased. 'I will give her to him', he thought, 'so that she may be a snare to him and so that the hand of the Philistines may be against him'. Now you have a second opportunity to become my son-in-law" (NIV)
In the King James Version, the end of Verse 21 reads:
"Thou shalt this day be my son-in-law, in the one of the twain." (KJV)
Saul's belief was that David would be so distracted by a wife that he would not be an effective fighter and would be killed by the Philistines. He offered first his daughter Merab, but that was rejected, presumably by her. Then he offered Michal. There is an interesting phrase used at the end of verse 21. In both the NIV and KJV, it would seem that David's first opportunity to be a son-in-law was with the older daughter Merab, and his second was with the younger daughter Michal. The KJV preserves the original text in its clearest form; it implies that David would become Saul's son-in-law through "one of the twain." "Twain" means "two", so the verse seems to refer to one of Saul's two daughters. Unfortunately, this is a mistranslation. The underlined phrase "the one of" does not exist in the Hebrew original. The words are shown in italics in the King James Version; this is an admission by the translators that they made the words up. Thus, if the KJV translators had been truly honest, they would have written:
"Thou shalt this day be my son-in-law, in the twain."
1 Samuel 20:41
"After the boy had gone, David got up from the south side of the stone and bowed down before Jonathan three times, with is face to the ground. Then they kissed each other and wept together - but David wept the most." (NIV)
"...and they kissed one another and wept with one another until David recovered himself." (Revised Standard Version)
2 Samuel 1:26
"I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me. Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women."
Was Jesus Straight or Gay?
A fragment of manuscript he found at the Mar Saba monastery near Jerusalem in 1958, showed that the full text of St. Mark chapter 10 (between verses 34 and 35 in the standard version of the Bible) contains a passage which includes the following text:
"And the youth, looking upon him (Jesus), loved him and beseeched that he might remain with him. And going out of the tomb, they went into the house of the youth, for he was rich. And after six days, Jesus instructed him and, at evening, the youth came to him wearing a linen cloth over his naked body. And he remained with him that night, for Jesus taught him the mystery of the Kingdom of God".
Know the Truth, and the Truth shall Set you Free
Some of us choose not to sign in because we don't post often enough to bother, I'm not against anyones beliefs or how they choose to live their lives as long as it doesn't come into changing my life and beliefs. No one gets a party for choosing partners in life,if you choose a same sex partner go on and live your life, hollering and screaming while jumping up and down will not change peoples hearts or minds only make them more determined not to change, as I said earlier, as an Ordained Minister in this church I expect to be polled as to my feelings on subjects before anyone speaks as my proxie and this did not happen.
For those "Christians" out there who criticize the Church, the Bible is intended to be a guide. If we were to take everything in it literally, the world would be a very bad bad place. Love is not a sin. However, there are many contradictions within the Bible about homosexuality. Not to mention the recently discovered sea scrolls which predate much of the "New Testament".
"When I do good, I feel good; when I do bad, I feel bad, and that is my religion." -President Abraham Lincoln
Peace to all, and quit judging, let's leave that for Judgment day and coexist peacefully until our "correct Gods" switch the lights off.
lol right so i feel just happy killing so you right now just because it feels good! I jst might rape someone too hahahahahaha! wat ever!
Well Put! Lets all coxest! in the name of allah! KaBOOM! haaha you died because my god told me to do so. Which one is the real true god. You pick your resting place my mine will be with jesus christ. lord bless!
BUT IF YOU JUDGE
JUDGE RIGHTEOUSLY...
I like how you cited MLK several times, but no religious texts. I would enjoy to see some footnotes backing up the repeated "God makes people gay" assertion.
Regardless, everyone can agree that God sometimes makes children without arms. Does that mean they should still be given the opportunity to serve in the military?
The military is not supposed to be providing a service to individual citizens (Though that is often a subsidiary benefit). It is in the business of assembling the best possible force to defend the Constitution ("Ask not what your country can do for you...").
And one of the key qualities to a good soldier is (As non-sunshiney-and-nice though it may be) ABSOLUTE CONFORMITY. And right or wrong, natural or choice, everyone should agree that people who are openly homosexual are not conformists.
Embrace that if you like. You're different and you're proud of that. Why do you want to be open and proud of your non-comformist sexuality, but also marry and serve in the military and generally mirror idealized American life?
--A Backwards Conservative
To A Backwards Conservative
(See the Legal brief above)
III. Immutable Trait
Scientific research in the animal kingdom shows that sexual orientation, like skin pigmentation, is an immutable trait and not a matter of choice. The empirical evidence seen consistently in accredited animal studies demonstrates that homosexual mating and behavior routinely occurs among a wide number of animal species such as birds, cats, dolphins, deer and bison, as well as primates such as macaques, bonobos, gorillas and chimpanzees. See: B. Bagemihl, Biological Exuberance: Animal Homosexuality and Natural Diversity (1999), Ecclesiastical Complaint and Proclamation -8- (2004), , National Geographic J. Owen. July 2004.
A forward Centrist who reads first and then asks questions
so we are comparing ourselves to birds and monkeys and such? you can compare yourself that way if you want but I choose not to lower myself to those life forms, also you do not mention natural selection, the strong will reproduce and strive while the weak die off, how long do you thing a species will survive if it does not reproduce. Results of studies can be made to say whatever the person conducting the study wants it to say, it's like polls, choose your group and get the results you want.
Only I have to say is the real church or religion is in yourself! And the real God is also and only in yourself!!!! The real and final freedom of the human being: EPIPHANY!!!!
I support this movement.
-WEseekTHETRUTH.ORG
I see many interpretations of what the Bible says regarding homosexuals, and you have a right to speak your mind against, if that is what you choose. But let me ask of you folks who do, what does the book say about judging others and what gives to you the right to judge my Brothers & Sisters?
The Bible is not provided to us to worry about everyone else's affairs, the Bible is their for us and our personal relationship with God.
If homosexuality is wrong in God's eyes, let that be between God and the individual - Quit attempting to Play God or to be a liaison for God.
Rev. Michael J. Cauley so..uh you agree with it than?REV..It does say to preach the gospal too. This is why we are here to tell everyone the goodnews. Will every other god is a died one, my god is alive.
I agree with you about judging others. but there comes a time and a place to when you have to be BOLD. Right is right and wrong is wrong.
If a man lies with a male as he lies with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination.
Leviticus 20:13
This is not me judging..As a rev. you should know that.
We have the right to do what want in our life. I've some friends that are gays and they decide to live just like they are, I respect them and thay're happy for that. The Wicca Rede say " An ye harm none, do as ye will" this guys don't harm to anyone if they live together, they are people just like us and have feeling. We are not Gods so don't judge them. As a Wicca Reverend I'll give my support to them, and my wife, she is with me, of course.
Let's see,,, what was the primary sin of Sodom and Gomorrah? If the book of Genisis is correct then it would be homosexuality. How do we know that God sent fire and brimstone down upon them? Could it be that 1. The Holy Bible says so and 2. They are still finding burnt and chared remains along with burnt and unburnt sulfer in Sodom and Gomorrah to this day embedded in the limestone in and around both cities.
I know how the book of revelations ends and I know where I'll be in the end. I just pray that many of you re-read your Holy Bible (Gods Word) and save yourselves before the end is here. It is never too late to ask for his forgiveness, and to trust in him, thats all he asks of you. I'll be praying for you all that you should have a hange of heart and come to see the light that is Christ our saviour.
Sodom and Gomorrah is not about Gays it’s about its ok to screw your children …YES INCEST IS BLESSED!
My bible loving brother, stop using Sodom and Gomorrah as a Gay baiting blather! Sodom and Gomorrah is about drunken incest with your children!
Most people are somewhat familiar with the story of Sodom and Gomorrah. They were two cities that were so wicked, so full of depravity that God decided to destroy them, so that their
wickedness would not spread throughout the earth. Abraham tried to save them (Gen. 18:16-33),
however; even the deal he made with God (to find 10 righteous people within the cities) wasn’t good enough. Genesis 19:15 tells us that only Lot, his wife, and his two unmarried daughters were smart enough to get out of town before it was destroyed. His wife faltered during the escape, having been warned not to look back, she let curiosity get the best of her and looked back anyway and was turned into a pillar of salt (Gen. 19:26).
The real story is: Lot and his two daughters end up hiding in a cave in the mountains outside the city of Zoar (Gen. 19:30). Just so you don’t think that I am making this next part up, I will quote directly from the Bible (I will use the Good News Bible translation).
Gen 19:30-36 Because Lot was afraid to stay in Zoar, he and his two daughters moved up into the hills and lived in a cave. (31) The older daughter said to her sister, "Our father is getting old, and there are no men in the whole world to marry us so that we can have children. (32) Come on, let's get our father
drunk, so that we can sleep with him and have children by him." (33) That night they gave him wine to
drink, and the older daughter had intercourse with him. But he was so drunk that he didn't know it. (34) The next day the older daughter said to her sister, "I slept with him last night; now let's get him drunk again tonight, and you sleep with him. Then each of us will have a child by our father." (35) So that night they got him drunk, and the younger daughter had intercourse with him. Again he was so drunk that he didn't know it. (36)
In this way both of Lot's daughters became pregnant by their own father.
Are you still with me? Did that story sink in?
There is a lot to talk about here. For beginners, who taught these people how to pack for an
emergency? They have just been rushed out of Sodom, by angels no less, and in their hurried exit they evidently found enough time to pack the wine. There are many instances in the Bible where we are
unsure if the ‘wine’ that is mentioned is actually wine as we know it now, meaning wine that is alcoholic. This is not one of those instances, as we clearly see that it was wine that did the same job that wine does today, namely: get someone drunk. What a scene that must have been. “Hey grab the plates, grab the clothes, and get those sandals out of the closet…but above all, DON’T FORGET THE WINE!” It must have been good wine. Who knows, maybe it was the same vintage that messed up Noah (Gen.9:20-27).
But the wine isn’t the crazy part. The crazy part is what Lot’s daughters used the wine to do.
Now, when most normal people are confronted with the knowledge of their parents having sex, the first
thing they want to do is find a tall building to jump off of. And that is just when your parents are having sex with each other! What in the world could have prompted these two CRAZY girls to do what they did? There are a few things going on here that need to be addressed, things that might shed some light on why Lot’s daughters did what they did.
The portion of the above story that we looked at earlier makes it seem as if Lot was an unwitting victim. That may not be entirely true. We need to look at something that happened earlier in the story.
Genesis 19 begins with two angels coming to visit Lot, presumably to tell him that Sodom and Gomorrah
are going to be destroyed, and to help him get out of there. Lot invites them into his house, and even prepares a feast for them. Now, the evil men of the city see that Lot has two visitors and they go to Lot’s house to demand that Lot bring out the two visitors so that they (the evil men of the city) can rape them...so we are led to believe! This is obviously disturbing to Lot, and he begs them not to do this evil thing. However, there is something wrong with Lot as well, because look at what he suggests.
Gen 19:6-8 Lot went outside and closed the door behind him. (7) He said to them, "Friends, I beg you,
don't do such a wicked thing! (8) Look, I have two daughters who are still virgins. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do whatever you want with them. But don't do anything to these men; they are guests in my house, and I must protect them."
Wow. I have heard of bad parenting before, but this just might take the cake. What kind of a
father would offer up his daughters to be gang-raped? This guy is the nephew of Abraham. Yes, that Abraham. How does he get to the point in his life where he would do something like this? I guess that it bears mentioning that Lot lived in a part of the world where hospitality was valued above almost every other virtue. Still, that doesn’t really excuse his behavior. Why didn’t he just offer himself up? The story makes it clear that the men of the city were after men anyway. Most parents that I know would
put themselves in harm’s way to protect their children. Not Lot. His first reaction is to send his
daughters out to an angry mob of men who are bent on doing evil.
I’ll bet the house was a little tense at this point, and I can’t imagine that Lot was very popular
with his daughters or his wife right then. Daddy’s little girls are probably (and understandably) a little ticked off, and I can’t even imagine what must have been going through his wife’s head after hearing what Lot’s solution to the problem at hand was.
Imagine what kind of effect this had on his daughters. I can only assume that if they had thought of their father as their protector; that was most certainly out the window. If they had thought that he had their best interests at heart; that was gone as well. A trust had been broken.
Genesis 19:37,38 tells us that the offspring that resulted from the
incest in the cave were Moab and Ben-Ammi, who were the fathers of the Moabites and the Ammonites
who would torment the children of Israel for centuries.
Rev. Geoff, Perhaps God and his first love, Lucifer was better friends than the men who wrote the books of the Bible tell us?
God is telling sending you new teachings. Strap in hold on and do stay tuned my brother.
Hate crime? LoL Some people just make Christians look stupid. I'm not pro-gay marriage, but I think if people love each other, it is none of my business. If they are going to spend their lives together, then let them make it as official as they want - straight, gay, or whatever. Heck - let polygamy become legal too. There are several families that would improve in that situation, and the economy would improve also! There would be less forclosures if families had two spouses working and one raising children so nothing is spent on childcare. And kids would do better in school too....
once was blind and you still don't see. You know what they say about "ASSUME". Had the men of the two cities not wanted so badly to have homosexual relations with the two angles God had sent things may have turned out differently.
Incest is tough, God forced it upon man in the early days at several different times, and there was no choice then, how else were civilizations to be brought about? Do I agree with incest, no but those were different times.
Anonymous the only ones that will look stupid are the ones that know the truth and chose to ignore it.
Rev Geoff
I see you as being one of these people that put down homosexuals. I would like to say I am a teenage bi Christian and a few years ago I attempted suicide because of people telling me that I was an abbomination to god. I finally realized god loved me and that he created me and that how could he hate something he created. Anyways if you want to discuss this issue email me @ reverend.rebecca.duke@yahoo.com
Gay is a wrong choice. It as wrong as marrying a child.It is as wrong as marrying an incapacitated individual who can not make decisions .It is as wrong as marrying a beast.Homo sexual is a perversion , a sickness that churches should be in the business of helping to cure.As a criminal may not be all bad , this church does seem to provide a valuable service to regular people in its ordaining information.
I interpret the story of Lot's daughter to be possibly missing details.
Chances are, Lot's daughters were NOT virgins, most likely. If they were, then they were virgins of a town in which others openly participated in pre-marrital sex, or in overtly sexual relations between adults, regardless of marital status.
His daughters may have grown privy to this lifestyle, even dreaming of opportunities to experience their own illicit debuts.
When the locals came before Lot to demand he share the guests, this was because these townmembers had been sworn to lives of discretion.
Un-invited visitors to a town of such communal, sexual lifestylers could surely have spoiled the hedonsitic moods of its dwellers.
Now, about Lot and his daughters... ANYbody so closely related to Abraham surely had to fear public opinion (& wrath of Abraham or possibly even of G*d). I can just hear it now, "Daddy, please share us with the village, every body else is doing it!!"
Lot, though sympathetic, had not easily found a comfortable moment to succumb to his daughter's wishes. When the villagers wanted to enjoy the visting (angels), Lot probably used common sense in a situation which prejudices of people even in today's modern time cannot believe. He gave the girls a chance to be enjoyed.
What he didn't know, possibly, was that his daughters were NOT virgins. Some or even all of the villagers may have already enjoyed Lot's daughters. They waned something new. Or, they wanted something male. Or, they were simply annoyed that Lot hadn't invited them and had decided to get the guests or crash the party in spite.
When he left, his wife turning to salt is probably wishful thinking. She either stayed and burned, snuck away, or was lost in weather or sea. Salt pillars grow and change on the Dead Sea a lot, probably. Lot may have been checking out his daughter from behind and forgotten to check on his wife. They may have told him not to look behind for that very purpose.
That the girls wanted to sleep with their daddy because they thought he could be the last man on earth? Unlikely. If he was, then would every woman left need to sleep with their daddy to reproduce? His Uncle Abraham was called the father of all... NOT Lot.
The bible perpetuates the very thing it black-lists: 'perversions'. By doing both at the same time, the bible or tanach have long provided tools unsurpassed in introducing matters of sexual extremes to us as we grow up, whilst still not 'advocating' these matters with introduction.
I don't think these passages have a lot to do with gay marriage. If anything, it shows readers that a community can exist regardless of sexual preferences. It also warns that those who chose ov ertly sexual lifestyles may find conflict from within, without, and then be erased from pubic record if possible.
I support gay marriage and the above interpretation of Lot's story was only included in response to other's shared rationale on the matter. I enjoy reading all of your posting of all of your points of view, and appreciate being amongst you in commentary.
I agree with some of what most of you have written and yet I cannot, in good conscience, agree with everything that any one of you have written singularly. You all make good points in YOUR POINT OF VIEW.
But none of us can view the world through YOUR eyes. We must view it through our OWN eyes, filter it through our OWN souls, and live our lives in it as we BEST we can.
You know, the more I read on this, the more I tend to think that the 3 Laws of Robotics as defined by Mr. Asimov need to be the first 3 lines in all religious scripture:
1. A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2. A robot must obey any orders given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law
Now replace the word "robot" with "human" & regard "orders" as "Man's Law"
Re-read the 3 Laws again with those changes...
1. A human may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
2. A human must obey any Man's Law given to it by human beings, except where such orders would conflict with the First Law.
3. A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First or Second Law
..makes for good reasoning does it not? Imagine a world that was governed by those 3 laws. No war. No oppression. No crime.
I know that most of you will think of me as crazy...and that is your point of view. Though I may not agree with it, I respect it as yours. I believe that we should do not harm to others...period. And that whatever your particular religion is...it is yours...period. Respect life & your fellow humans and you will go to "your higher power" at the end of your time on this planet.
And as far as the primary issue being addressed by Rev. Gary: I was not consulted prior to issuance of the opinions expressed in the correspondence. And I agree that all of us should have a voice in any issuance of ULC opinions, being for or against the topic, and not lumped together as a unified voice if that voice is NOT unified. -GT
God created Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve. Beginning with Genisis:
Genisis 2:18 The Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.”
19 Now the Lord God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field.
But for Adam no suitable helper was found. 21 So the Lord God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and closed up the place with flesh. 22 Then the Lord God made a woman from the ribi he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man.
23 The man said,
“This is now bone of my bones
and flesh of my flesh;
she shall be called ‘woman’
for she was taken out of man.”
24 For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
1 Corinthians 6:18 Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a man commits are outside his body, but he who sins sexually sins against his own body. 19 Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; 20 you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body.
Leviticus 18:22 “ ‘Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable.
Romans 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
1 Corinthians 6 Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders
This concoction is Baal worship. Quit dressing yourselves in bullshit moth eaten garments, and just Rock. If you want to be gay, you don't need to justify yourself, but make no mistake, God still calls it an abomination. He made them male and female, that the two should become one flesh, and remain. God sees through the mountains and hills you attempt to cover yourself with, to hide yourselves from the face of the Mountain of Israel, the Lamb who sits on the throne. He will cast every one of them down, and all flesh will see the salvation of God.
Well said Jay
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